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Cryptocurrency radio

Morgan Peck: The way that the, the, uh, technology works is that, uh, it tracks every single transaction that's every made on the network. Molly Webster: Any time anyone with a Bitcoin buys a coffee or a pound of heroin, that transaction is kept in something called the public ledger. Morgan Peck: Bitcoin has a ledger, public ledger.

Jad Abumrad: And is that something that each person has? Morgan Peck: It's out there for anyone to see. Jad Abumrad: Really? Morgan Peck: Yep. Jad Abumrad Jad Abumrad: Well that's not private at all. Morgan Peck: No.

Molly Webster: In other words, in the ledger, you never see anyone's actual name. Morgan Peck: There are no names on, in Bitcoin. Molly Webster: Like I wouldn't be Molly. I'd be TG. Morgan Peck: The problem is that while there are no names attached, the behavior is out there for anyone to see. Molly Webster: Turns out it's really not that hard to match this, like, string of characters with the person that it represents out in the real world. Morgan Peck: Oh yeah. Jad Abumrad: Wow. Molly Webster: And so one of the puzzles that, uh, all the internet people think about is, is there a way to get the best of both worlds?

Zooko Wilcox: Hello, Zooko here. Molly Webster: To somebody named Zooko Wilcox. Zooko Wilcox: I'm Zooko and I'm in a different room. Molly Webster: laughs Okay. Zooko Wilcox: Mm. Molly Webster: Like, it's just a good name, Zooko. Zooko Wilcox: Thanks. Molly Webster: Yay, Zooko! Morgan Peck: He's been working on digital currencies for a long time.

Molly Webster: And he's extremely trusted. Jad Abumrad: Is he a charismatic leader type of thing? Molly Webster: Yeah, he is. When he first encountered Bitcoin, he was, like, "Cool. Molly Webster: Because Morgan Peck: He's a pretty hardcore cipher punk. Jad Abumrad: Oh my God, it's like worlds upon worlds that are opening for us.

Morgan Peck: Yeah. Molly Webster: She said this, it is group of people that care deeply about how to make the internet more private. Zooko Wilcox: I think privacy is a human right and that it's a necessary condition for the exercise of, of free choice, of morality and of political participation and of everything that's, uh, of intimacy, everything that's most important it as humans. Molly Webster: So this whole thing with Bitcoin and the privacy problem Zooko Wilcox: So I went out my way, studied the Bitcoin source code and I contributed some suggestions and yes, I immediately started fantasizing about what could be better.

Molly Webster: So then he, being like the privacy, security cipher punk guru laughs , he becomes the leader of something called Zcash. Zooko Wilcox: Zcash. Morgan Peck: And Zcash, really it's main, um, contribution to this ecosystem is privacy. Zooko Wilcox: So there's this thing called a zero knowledge proof. Molly Webster: Okay. Zooko Wilcox: And it's a mathematical invention that mathematicians had come up with. Zooko Wilcox: This where computer science and mathematics start to overlap into wizardry here.

Molly Webster: All you need to know is that Zcash promises to give you decentralization with this like, buffet of privacy. Zooko Wilcox: An unfortunate vulnerability in the math. Molly Webster: In order to create the currency of Zcash you have to first create a number. Zooko Wilcox: A certain, enormous number. Molly Webster: And then you use that number to do a bunch of math. Morgan Peck: In this system, in this system if somebody got a hold of the private key they could counterfeit Zcash coins.

Zooko Wilcox: They could counterfeit money. Morgan Peck Zooko Wilcox: You could cheat. Morgan Peck: That's a really big problem when you have a, uh, anonymous currency. Molly Webster: 'Cause no one would ever know. Morgan Peck: Nope. Molly Webster: Bitcoin, since it's a public ledger, you can actually see if there's any funny business going on.

Morgan Peck: Right, the lack of privacy in Bitcoin is a security measure. Molly Webster: But here, no one would ever know. Morgan Peck: There's this one moment where, you know, you have to trust people in a way that's completely existentially defining of the currency. Molly Webster: So this is what Zooko's up against. Jad Abumrad: Is i-, this is very much like an immaculate conception.

Molly Webster: That's so good. Okay, so here we are. Zooko decides Zooko Wilcox: We'll have a ceremony. Molly Webster: Wow, okay. Morgan Peck: Here's the thing. Morgan Peck: I was chosen, yeah. Molly Webster: And, but did you even know what you were being invited to?

Morgan Peck: Come to this, uh, coffee store in Boulder. Molly Webster: So Morgan gets on a flight to Denver, rents a car to Boulder, and goes to the coffee shop. Morgan Peck: Zooko's there. Molly Webster: Standing next to the barista counter. Morgan Peck: And actually, he has a huge paper map with him. Molly Webster: Friend of Zooko's.

Morgan Peck: Who, uh, was going to film it all. Molly Webster: Was that, was that for you? You wanted everything recorded? Zooko Wilcox: Yeah. And it was to serve as a security mechanism and documentation for the public. Molly Webster: More on that in a second.

Zooko Wilcox: And then Nathaniel K: Okay. Zooko Wilcox: Okay. Molly Webster: They leave the coffee shop, go over to Nat's van. Morgan Peck: He mics us both up. I told him they could mic me up. Zooko Wilcox: And we're gonna, now we're gonna turn off all of our cell phones. Morgan Peck: I'm trying to think if I have to say goodbye to anyone. Zooko Wilcox: We were like, okay. Zooko Wilcox: Yeah we're going to the computer store.

Molly Webster: You know, already planted some malware or tracking device on Zooko's personal laptop. Zooko Wilcox: Before we even started. Molly Webster: To get a clean computer. Morgan Peck: He's decided to go to Denver for this. Morgan Peck: But laughs he doesn't want to use his phone. Zooko Wilcox: No. Hey, I think I need to use my paper map. Morgan Peck: Because what if somebody's like, tracking what he's looking at. Zooko Wilcox: Let's go straight.

Morgan Peck: Nat is doing much of this recording while he's driving. Jad Abumrad: Do you have like a black hoodie over you, like, Hezbollah style? Morgan Peck: No Molly Webster: So they're driving for a little bit. Zooko Wilcox: When Molly Webster: All of a sudden they make this pit stop. Zooko Wilcox: laughs We were like, "Hey, there's a costume store.

Morgan Peck: This is the right spot. Zooko Wilcox: Way to go, Nat. Storeperson 1: Okay. Zooko Wilcox: Can I see your wizard hat section? Storeperson 1: Yeah. Zooko Wilcox: Hmm Molly Webster: What is the wizard hat you settled on? Zooko Wilcox: Um, ooh, it was a Gandalf hat.

Gandalf hat. Yeah I love the Gandalf hat. Molly Webster: Ah. Zooko Wilcox: I think it's good. Molly Webster: That is appropriate. The greatest wizard of all. So that's gonna be a winner, thanks. Storeperson 1: Yeah, of course. Molly Webster: And then Morgan Peck: Van, Denver, computer.

Zooko Wilcox: We drove down using our paper map with our cellphones off to the computer store. Molly Webster: They get there. Storeperson 2: Howdy. Molly Webster: Walk in. Zooko Wilcox: Oh yeah. This is the place. Molly Webster: Do a little computer shopping.

Zooko Wilcox: Can we get a side by side comparison of two different ones. Storeperson 2: Sure. Molly Webster: A few minutes later Zooko Wilcox: Yeah, I want this one. Molly Webster: Zooko gets his computer. Morgan Peck: And at that point, the computer is sacred. Zooko Wilcox: It's called an i Zooko Wilcox: It's called the compute node.

Jad Abumrad: And why is it scared? Molly Webster: Well, because this is the computer that will hold the secret number, the number that will give birth to an entirely new currency. Zooko Wilcox: All right, thank you very much. Zooko Wilcox: And drove to an area that had hotels that we knew of. But where's this hotel? Morgan Peck: And we're going around to, like, the hotels in Boulder. Zooko Wilcox: Is it this way? Morgan Peck: And they're all full. Zooko Wilcox: I don't know if they have ethernet in their hotel room.

Morgan Peck: Or they don't have an ethernet connection. Zooko Wilcox: So then we go to another hotel. Morgan Peck: I liked that hotel it was really Molly Webster: And another. Zooko Wilcox: She wasn't clear on the notion of ethernet. Morgan Peck: It's like at night. Ahh, what's the plan here? Zooko Wilcox: laughs Yes.

Zooko Wilcox: Millennium has rooms and it has ethernet. Molly Webster: They find hotel. Morgan Peck: Oh my God. Zooko Wilcox: And she even went and double checked. Molly Webster: Zooko actually has Nat book the hotel room. Zooko Wilcox: For two nights. Nathaniel K: Do you want me to come with you? Zooko Wilcox: Yep. Do you have a key? Morgan Peck: We all check into one room. Zooko Wilcox: Ground floor. It's not particularly fancy.

Morgan Peck: Couple tables, you know, you got your two beds. Molly Webster: Then they set up. Zooko Wilcox: We're a well organized machine. Molly Webster: They totally transform the place. Morgan Peck: In general, I'm not gonna help out. They gave me a bed to chill out on. Zooko Wilcox: You can concentrate on, on careful observing. Morgan Peck: Okay.

Zooko Wilcox: So what we did was, we stripped the room of all of the lamps and the telephone. Morgan Peck: Everything on all the counters gets shoved somewhere. Zooko Wilcox: All of that stuff, cleared it away into the closet or the bathtub. Morgan Peck: What are you doing? Zooko Wilcox Molly Webster: So they unplug it, slide it under one of the beds Zooko Wilcox: Goodbye, TV.

You know what? Another reason is I hate TVs. Television is the worst. Molly Webster: Then they grab the table where they're gonna set up the compute node. Morgan Peck: Want to explain again why you're keeping it away from the wall? Molly Webster: Pull that out a ways.

Zooko Wilcox: Oh Molly Webster: This is like the dopest attack that Zooko is planning against, called side channel attacks. Zooko Wilcox: And that's a message by which you could use an antenna. Molly Webster: Or like a really high tech microphone Molly Webster: For example with some crazy microphone you could listen in to the computer's processor and if you heard something like Morgan Peck: So Zooko Wilcox: All right, so please don't put anything on this desk from here on out. Morgan Peck: It's pulled away from the wall about, I don't know, five feet, just in case there's somebody set up next door.

Zooko Wilcox: And then started loading in all the cameras and equipment. Morgan Peck: Battery backs, junk food, but then there was also a whole security camera set up. Zooko Wilcox: One cool, one really cool thing about these security cameras is that they don't have a radio. Morgan Peck: Four security cameras which were from the '80s. Zooko Wilcox: Before security cameras came with wifi. Morgan Peck: Mm-hmm affirmative. And their nigh vision security cameras.

Molly Webster: And they set those up. Zooko Wilcox: So that you could see the other cameras from the first cameras. Molly Webster: And this security camera set up was, uh, one of the key points in trying to create what Morgan was talking about earlier. Morgan Peck: This alchemy. Molly Webster: Faith. Zooko Wilcox: Trust. Molly Webster: Whatever. Zooko Wilcox: So the security mechanism this was, this was going to catch any shenanigans.

Molly Webster: And then Zooko was gonna post this security footage to the internet so, uh, experts, security experts, could scan it an make up their minds. Zooko Wilcox: Hold on, where are you gonna sleep tonight? Zooko Wilcox: So we set all that stuff up. Molly Webster: It's like now, Zooko Wilcox: Yeah, it was late, and, um, I took the computer that we used, the so called compute node, and then from that moment forward, I kept that thing like within arms reach for f-, for 48 hours or so.

Zooko Wilcox: Yeah, like I slept with it that night, um, in my bed. Molly Webster: Goodnight sweet prince, and flights of and angels sing me to thy rest. Jad Abumrad: Coming up Andrei: This is Andrei Karameto from the port town of [inaudible ], Texas. Advertisement: Introducing Pocket Casts, the powerful podcasting platform recognized by Wired magazine as the podcast app every iPhone user needs and by the New York Times as the favorite among podcast experts. Jad Abumrad: Jad. Molly Webster: Molly.

Jad Abumrad: Radiolab. Back to Boulder. Morgan Peck: Sorry, I can't open the door. That would be helping you. Molly Webster: It's the next morning. Zooko Wilcox: Saturday morning. Molly Webster: Zooko sits down at his personal computer and he starts making all these Zooko Wilcox: Hello. Video Chat: Hello. Video Chat: Hey Moses. Molly Webster: A guy in Texas. Video Chat: Does anyone tell you you sound like Tom Hardy? Molly Webster: Florida. Zooko Wilcox: Okay, really appreciate your help.

Molly Webster: Slovenia. Video Chat: Is John on mine? Let me see. Zooko Wilcox: Good job, pit boss. Molly Webster: Another guy in California. Video Chat: Thanks. Molly Webster: And then there was this mysterious one. Zooko Wilcox: Okay, Fabrese is ready. Molly Webster: That was s- only referred to as Fabrese and didn't know where he was.

Jad Abumrad: laughs What? Who are all these guys? Molly Webster: So, for Zooko, it's, it's very unacceptable. Zooko Wilcox: This was a trick. Molly Webster: It's all smoke and mirrors. Zooko Wilcox: It's like stage magic. Molly Webster: Like, sure, you say you recorded everything but maybe you manipulated the footage. Zooko Wilcox: And so Molly Webster: So what Zooko decided to do was get in touch with all these guys all over the world and try and decentralize this trust.

Morgan Peck: So, there were six stations. Molly Webster: Each with their own compute nodes, security cameras set up, ready to help Zooko make this big, random number. Morgan Peck: The private key, so, each s- of the six stations was actually creating one piece of this key. Molly Webster: That way they'll be no one person that makes the entire key. Morgan Peck: The idea was, nobody will actually have the key itself.

Zooko Wilcox: Hope this works. Molly Webster: So everyone's got their compute node powered on. Video Chat: You have to hold the power, okay. Zooko Wilcox: Diagnostics complete. Press enter when you're ready to begin the ceremony. Zooko Wilcox: Okay, now this is the top secret part. Molly Webster: Zooko closes the blinds. Zooko Wilcox: And so, I'm gonna cover my keyboard with this special box. Molly Webster: He'd put it over the keyboard of the compute node. Zooko Wilcox: Yeah, hold on.

And then I slid my hands under the cardboard box. Cecil Taylor it. Morgan Peck: Mash it. Cat walking across the computer. And once he's done. Zooko Wilcox: I think we're done with the cardboard box. Molly Webster: What the compute node does it is it takes all those random characters and it combines it with more random characters that are generated, like, inside the computer until finally it creates a part of the key.

Zooko Wilcox: And each of the other five participants had to do the same thing. Molly Webster: Do you see who made their piece of the key? Molly Webster: Thank God there's convoluted math to save the day. Morgan Peck: Um, may- I think it's a good time to just say what was happening. Molly Webster: Three, two, one. Molly Webster: First thing's first. Zooko Wilcox: Okay, here I come. Molly Webster: The guy in California gets on the horn.

Video Chat: So the stations are Andrew, Peter. Video Chat: Preparing the, doing my computations, now. Molly Webster: Station one guy and his compute node do some math on his piece of the key. Video Chat: Yeah. Okay, um, my compute node just finished. Hell yeah. Molly Webster: His compute node spits out a number.

Zooko Wilcox: 'Cause we don't want a hacker to be able to hack into the compute node. Molly Webster: This, by the way, has a pretty cool name. Zooko Wilcox: This is called air gapped. Morgan Peck: You have a protective field, basically, around the computer that holds the secret. Molly Webster: A field of air. Video Chat: It's receiving data as you can see. Molly Webster: Uploads it to the internet. Zooko Wilcox: Okay, great. Molly Webster: And then the guy at station two.

Peter Van B: Mm-hmm affirmative. Molly Webster: Peter Van Bachenberg. Peter Van B: Um, I'm putting in the compute node. Molly Webster: Then the compute node takes that little answer, combines it with Peter's piece of the key and then Zooko Wilcox: Math. So now is it computing?

Peter Van B: Yep. Molly Webster: Again, the compute node keeps Peter's piece of the key a secret, spits out a new answer, a bigger answer. Zooko Wilcox: Quick! Molly Webster: Takes it out of the compute node. Peter Van B: Lift it over the gap.

Molly Webster: Brings it back across the air gap. Peter Van B: To the networked computer. Molly Webster: Uploads his answer, then station three grabs and combines it with their key, gets a little bit more of an answer. Zooko Wilcox: So exciting. Molly Webster: Then station four. Zooko Wilcox: My compute node gets to do it's thing. Like serious math. Molly Webster: And then you get a little bit more of the answer and just rinse, watch, repeat. Video Chat: Wooh! Molly Webster: Station five. Video Chat: Huzzah!

Molly Webster: Six. Molly Webster: Was there a, like a, c- t- t- t- t- a titter in the air? Morgan Peck: Uh Zooko Wilcox: Did you bring a deck of cards? Nathaniel K: I brought juggling balls. Zooko Wilcox: Cool. I can juggle three balls. Zooko Wilcox: Who's next on the list?

Molly Webster: And they had to do like, three full rotations through this order. Zooko Wilcox: Oh, hey, somebody tell Moses. Molly Webster: So most of the weekend was just kind of sittin' around. Zooko Wilcox: Shaun? Molly Webster: Waiting. Zooko Wilcox: Peter? Molly Webster: And waiting. Zooko Wilcox: Anyone? Peter Van B: What's that? Zooko Wilcox: Tell Moses. Peter Van B: No. Morgan Peck: Um, so, yeah we're hanging out.

Video Chat: Okay, uh, my compute node just finished. Zooko Wilcox: Oh, good to know. Morgan Peck: Uh, Zooko has brought along some pork rinds. Zooko Wilcox: Cool, I'm gonna get our coffee. Nathaniel K: Hmm. Morgan Peck: Also Molly Webster: And as the hours roll by, things are going really well, people are getting their math done, they're passing along these answers, they're getting closer to having their key, when, maybe half way into the process, things get strange.

Molly Webster: They're each lying in their beds just, kind of, chilling out. Zooko Wilcox: And then, oh Morgan Peck: What? Zooko Wilcox: I groaned and said, uh, oh there's work to do. Back to work. Molly Webster: So Zooko gets up and he starts talking. Zooko Wilcox: When, which is, uh, w- why is my voice echoing back at me? Morgan Peck: There's feedback. Zooko Wilcox: A feedback loop started echoing. Morgan Peck: It was like, uh, wh- incongruous noise, make it stop.

Nathaniel K: I'm muting all my mics. Molly Webster: He, like, turns off the mic. Zooko Wilcox: Ah. And so I was, like, oh okay. Molly Webster: And he sits down at the Google Hangout computer. Zooko Wilcox: Hook me up with that. Morgan Peck: Oh. Zooko Wilcox: A tester, tester.

Molly Webster: And this echo comes back. Zooko Wilcox: Where's that coming from? Molly Webster: And then just turns his head to the left, looking off camera. Zooko Wilcox: Why do we have play out over there now? Molly Webster: At this point, everyone in the room just sort of falls silent and is lookin' around.

Morgan Peck: Yeah, I start, like, pin pointing it to, like, the, the part of the room that has the security cameras monitor. Zooko Wilcox: Test, test. Where's this coming from? Test, test. Morgan Peck: I start listening to that, and I'm like, I think it's coming from over here. Morgan Peck: Do it again. Zooko Wilcox: I stopped and I said, uh, wait, wait a minute. W- what is playing out over there? Zooko Wilcox: And I looked in the direction of Morgan's bed.

Morgan Peck: And then I turn around, I pick up my phone. Morgan Peck: It's my phone. Morgan Peck: And the echo's coming out of my speaker. Jad Abumrad: It's coming out of your phone. Morgan Peck: It's coming out of my phone. Zooko Wilcox: Why is your phone playing out sound? Morgan Peck: I have no idea. Zooko Wilcox: You don't- stop, no, don't mess with it. Molly Webster: He zeroes in on this mic that's on the corner of the computer that's doing the Google Hangouts.

Zooko Wilcox: Did you connect your phone to this Hangout? Molly Webster: He leans over to that. Zooko Wilcox: Hold on. Molly Webster: Starts fiddling with it. Zooko Wilcox: It's coming from this way. So, is there a way, hmm Molly Webster: He stands, he sits. Morgan Peck: I don't know. Zooko Wilcox: Wait, wait, wait, I know it's not coming from the mic. Peter Van B: Test. All good men [crosstalk ] country.

Zooko Wilcox: Okay, good. Morgan Peck: Why is our chat coming through your phone? Jad Abumrad: Oh, wait. Molly Webster: Yes. Jad Abumrad: That's so weird. Molly Webster: Very weird. Morgan Peck: It Molly Webster: So Zooko Wilcox: Can you turn on the screen?

Morgan Peck: I don't run any apps. Zooko Wilcox: Is that doing video, Nat? Nathaniel K: Yeah, I'm recording. Molly Webster: At this point, the cameras have, like, swiveled so they're focused on the phone. Zooko Wilcox: Okay, um. Morgan Peck: Man, I don't know h- Should we throw it in the river? Zooko Wilcox: laughs No.

Can you, is this Android? Zooko Wilcox: What, how do you, can you, like, get a list of apps running, like, by swiping down from the top, or something? I don't use this, like, at all. Morgan Peck: Wait, yes.

Great knowledge, well presented and very informative. Would recommend to newbies and crypto pioneers alike. Before putting any money into any tech, understand what the tech is about. Crypto Radio is great for those trying to do that for the blockchain world.

Im really like to listen podcasts, and i was looking for one that have good quality for learn about cryptos and for how to make money with it. Then i found you guys, thanks for so much good information in this unnexplored world! I higly recommend your podcasts for who want to learn about cryptos and ICO's.

Based on knowledge rather than intuition, I like the logic behind these podcasts. They really allow me to feel more secure about my crypto decisions. I am very grateful for the priceless insight! Big fan of Future Thinkers and I always craved more talks on crypto and blockchain this filles that great. Looking foward to its progression.

I've been getting more and more into the world of Cryptocurrency and I am happy to have found this podcast. So far, they have done a great job laying out the basics for newcomers, and I look forward to seeing where the show goes. As a crypto beginner this podcast has been very informative!

It's not filled with the basic, "this is what you should do and you will make money! They have been helpful to understand the technology, its potential, and its current issues. They get right down to business. This is a very intelligent group of people that always seem to be ahead of the curve.

Because of them I will keep buying bitcoin after I almost scared myself out of it. It has been very lucritive, and I only see this technology growing! We are living in an exciting time. Great introduction to Bitcoin. Feel like I'm ready to take next baby steps in the crypto world and looking forward to the following episodes. Rock on! Just as it is with the industry they cover, these guys are ahead of the curve and I am excited to see where both Crypto and this podcast go. All 4 hosts mesh well to bring you all the knowledge to get started into this exciting new field.

I have found a fun and cool place to use when I need to create or zone out!! Everyone should give this platform a try!! Tuned into the first episode of this podcast as I saw it pop up Twitter. Interrupted some a16z thing to listen to this instead Had high hopes for this podcast as I've been enjoying listening to the dangerously mind-exanding Future Thinkers podcast for some time.

Here we have two new hosts in addition to the usual Future Thinkers line-up. I must say this expanded Crytpo team was a real treat. Really good conversation and good to hear the views of the hosts and some crisp thinking about blockchain, crypto and financial markets generally. Most of all what I like about the approach here is the complete accessibility of the subject that this podcast is geared towards.

Listening to this first episode is a good guide to knowing where to start with cryptocurrency. Looking forward to more. Crypto Radio is a podcast about all things blockchain, bitcoin, and crypto investing. We interview the top thinkers and entrepreneurs in the industry, and cover topics like bitcoin and ethereum, news, technology developments, investing, trading, and ICOs.

Toggle navigation. A podcast about all things blockchain, bitcoin, and crypto investing. Stay up to date. Reviews Awesome Podcast!! August 9, by Brooke Craven from United States. Leave a Review.

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And this security camera set up was, uh, one of the key points in trying to create what Morgan was talking about earlier. And then Zooko was gonna post this security footage to the internet so, uh, experts, security experts, could scan it an make up their minds.

Could the ceremony be trusted. Yeah, it was late, and, um, I took the computer that we used, the so called compute node, and then from that moment forward, I kept that thing like within arms reach for f-, for 48 hours or so.

It was a little bit exhausting trying to be paranoid, and it-. Yeah, like I slept with it that night, um, in my bed. I kept my, kept my arm around it. This is Andrei Karameto from the port town of [inaudible ], Texas. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.

Introducing Pocket Casts, the powerful podcasting platform recognized by Wired magazine as the podcast app every iPhone user needs and by the New York Times as the favorite among podcast experts. Pocket Casts is beautifully designed, easy to use, and helps you quickly discover and enjoy your favorite podcasts with over , shows to choose from.

Download the app. Now free at pocketcasts. That was s- only referred to as Fabrese and didn't know where he was. I didn't find out until afterwards that he was actually driving from Vancouver across British Columbia laughs. So, for Zooko, it's, it's very unacceptable. He wants to take as much of the trust, you gotta trust me, out of it as possible. And that's what he tried to do. So even though Zooko's gonna record all of this footage, put it up on line, l- later somebody who's gonna be watching that could be like Like, sure, you say you recorded everything but maybe you manipulated the footage.

Maybe you didn't even set the cameras up the way you said you did. So what Zooko decided to do was get in touch with all these guys all over the world and try and decentralize this trust. Each with their own compute nodes, security cameras set up, ready to help Zooko make this big, random number.

The private key, so, each s- of the six stations was actually creating one piece of this key. That way they'll be no one person that makes the entire key. It'll just be these little pieces that actually won't every come in contact with one another. Okay, now this is the top secret part. Where's the, the special box? We have to make sure that nobody can, uh, guess or read this secret.

And so, I'm gonna cover my keyboard with this special box. So I took a cardboard box that one of the computers had come in and sawed it in half so that it was, uh, a half of a cardboard box. And then I think we're done with the cardboard box. It's served its purpose and now we can auction it on eBay. What the compute node does it is it takes all those random characters and it combines it with more random characters that are generated, like, inside the computer until finally it creates a part of the key.

Do you see who made their piece of the key? Florida, Texas, Slovenia, Canada. Okay, so you've got one key broken into six pieces and the next step is to get all of the pieces to work together to create on thing, which is Zcash. And you wanna do this in such a way that those pieces never touch each other, that they remain hidden so that n- no person could ever get their hands on the power of the whole key.

Why DVD? Because all the guys at these stations have ripped out the wifi in their compute node. A field of air. Anyway, once the computer is done burning to this DVD, the guy at station one takes it an walks it to another computer.

Then the compute node takes that little answer, combines it with Peter's piece of the key and then Again, the compute node keeps Peter's piece of the key a secret, spits out a new answer, a bigger answer. Uploads his answer, then station three grabs and combines it with their key, gets a little bit more of an answer. Back to the top of the order. And throughout this entire process the individual shards of the key are kept separate and secret. Yet together, they're doing the math that's getting closer and closer and closer to the final key that will launch Zcash.

Which is the only sleeping that's happened, like, there's like, you know, and hour here And as the hours roll by, things are going really well, people are getting their math done, they're passing along these answers, they're getting closer to having their key, when, maybe half way into the process, things get strange.

They're each lying in their beds just, kind of, chilling out. Morgan was just waking, Zooko was playing on a tablet. A feedback loop started echoing. You know, like, going beep boop beep beep beep beep. Beep beep beep. I'm muting all my mics. I don't know where it's feeding back from. Probably this one. And this echo comes back. And if you look at the video you see, he, like, just freezes.

At this point, everyone in the room just sort of falls silent and is lookin' around. Yeah, I start, like, pin pointing it to, like, the, the part of the room that has the security cameras monitor. You don't- stop, no, don't mess with it. I wanna see what's going on. It's playing off in this way. He zeroes in on this mic that's on the corner of the computer that's doing the Google Hangouts. Wait, wait, wait, I know it's not coming from the mic.

It's coming fr-, it's not coming from this mic, it's coming from the Google Hangout, 'cause I just muted it in software, now it's gone. So my voice from Google Hangout, okay, let's hear Peter's voice. Uh, I wanna test audio coming from you. Say some stuff. Oh, wait. So the audio coming out of her phone is not originating from in the room, it's, it's somehow the Google ch- Hangout chat? That's coming through her phone? So, I'm kneeling on the bed with it and I look at it and I think that's when I just, like, threw it, threw it on the bed.

What, how do you, can you, like, get a list of apps running, like, by swiping down from the top, or something? Here we- what about that thing? Yeah, that's what I think. That there was an attacker and they screwed up and accidentally turned on the speaker. No, this isn't just like, I don't know, I've been, what do you mean, hacked?

What kind of hacked would we have been? Oh, you find out that private messages and what's been had, had access to them. Um, or that people have been s-, uh, sending messages spoofed to be from you-. Now it becomes a more civilized conversation of, um, what are we gonna do? And, and then Zooko said to me To me, i-, my responsibility is not just to myself, you know. Privacy is a shared resource, it's a sh-, or it's a share-, it's something we share with each other.

Um, the responsibility is I will say this is one of the first stories where I get p- what privacy, data protection, like, means. Like, I remember when Morgan was telling me this story, thinking, if someone had hacked into Morgan's phone, how long had they been hacked in for? And I talk to Morgan all the time. And like, oh, weird, I was kind of hacked. You know?

And then it's, like, wait who else did you talk to? Was your, ooh your dad was kind of hacked. Oh, oh crap, you exchanged those text messages that weren't on Signal. That person was kind of hacked. And then suddenly it just dawned on me. Duh, like, her privacy isn't just hers. The things that are on my phone that are private are not only private for me they're private for, for anyone I was talking to. And, and I almost feel like I don't even have a right to give over that phone if I haven't talked to the people that, that that would be exposing.

Like, that's not fair. But then you realize, like, no, like, if one person doesn't insist on privacy, kind of like a chink in the armor. Uh, for about an hour, Morgan and Zooko go back and forth about what to do with her phone. Yeah, you're not gonna miss much, uh, that's, uh, that's planned or scheduled.

I'm just hesitating for no good reason. I can't think of any reason wh- for you not to take a walk. I'm just kinda freaked out. So then I had to decide what shall we do? Shall we abort the ceremony? Shall we, um, focus our attention on some sort of investigation of Morgan's phone? What shall we do? Here's the decision, here's what we're gonna do.

Uh, g-, y- get Morgan's phone out of here and otherwise no change. He figured if these people have hacked into Morgan's phone, we have so many security measures in place that we can keep going and we'll figure this out later. So basically what happens is, like, Morgan comes back from her walk. Because in the case that the computer holds, like, a ghosty fingerprint of that, like, original piece of the key, they just want it gone. Smashed the pieces with a hammer and dropped the crushed pieces into a giant bonfire.

And that was that. And now they were sort of at the moment where they're like, okay, well we, we actually did the technological, like, thing, which was we created the system, and now the bigger question was did they create the alchemy that they needed to inspire trust. Like, were all the protocols and the video footage and all that stuff, was it all enough? Especially now that they have the phone thing. They were like, did we do what we needed to do to show the world that they want to buy into this thing.

Zcash is a cryptocurrency build on Bitcoin's code base that is dedicated to protecting your privacy. And that is, the Bitcoin high at the time is, like, f- around 1, So that's insane! So if the goal on some level, at the very beginning of this conversation was to inspire the community to then use it, it seems like it, it has, it has done that. Uh, some.

Yeah, people have, people want me to, they wanna know, like, wh- how it resolves. So, what actually happened was we went to this bonfire laughs , uh, and then by the end of it, uh, everybody was sort of rushing off. I was rushing to the, to the airport, and just, like, gave my phone to Zooko. And was like, we'll talk about it. I trust you. Don't do anything that I haven't agreed to.

We're, we keep thinking of improvements we want to make and new innovations. This piece was produced by Molly Webster and Matt Kielty. And also thanks to his assistant Daniel Cooper. And lastly, very special thanks to Morgan Peck, her, uh, reporting on the ceremony obviously was sort of the anchor for our piece, uh, and you can find her article at IEEE Spectrum. Uh, we will link you to it from radiolab.

Okay, we will be back and Robert will be back with me, uh, in a couple weeks. I'm Jad Abumrad. Hi, this is Will Zobb. Um, I'm calling from sunny Seattle, Washington. Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. Dillon Keefe is our director of sound design. Soren Wheeler is senior editor. Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www. New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors.

This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. By submitting your information, you're agreeing to receive communications from New York Public Radio in accordance with our Terms of Use. NYPR Network. Listen For Free Support Us. Colby Kirkpatrick Summary Transcript. Jad Abumrad: All right. Intro 2: Kay.

Intro 1: Radiolab. Intro 2: C? Intro 1: Yep. Molly Webster: I'm Molly Webster. Jad Abumrad: This is Radiolab. Molly Webster Jad Abumrad: Cool. Jad Abumrad: Okay. Molly Webster: And we're, we're, we're holed up in my apartment, I don't know, this was like No-, last November or something.

Molly Webster: Yeah. Molly Webster: laughs I was like, "What is going on? Jad Abumrad: Mm-hmm affirmative. Molly Webster: I put it in the e-, in my bedroom and I put it under pillows and I turned it off, I came back, I sat down. Jad Abumrad: laughs What was it that happened? Molly Webster: W- i- it takes a few steps. Morgan Peck: I'm Morgan Peck. Jad Abumrad: How would you identify yourself? Morgan Peck: Professionally, I'm a freelance journalist.

Molly Webster: And in my eyes Morgan has become, like, the historian of the world of digital money. Morgan Peck: I started writing about neuroscience, but quickly found out about Bitcoin about a year into my writing, , and have pretty much been writing about it ever since.

News 2: Bitcoin, the virtual currency. Molly Webster: Obviously, it has become associated with cyber crime. But for Morgan Morgan Peck: No, no, no, no, no. Molly Webster: What attracted her to this whole world, what made her go Morgan Peck: Oh my God, this thing is amazing. Molly Webster: She was, like, pulled in by the idealism of it. Morgan Peck: There was an extremely active community of people who were talking about, you know, um, completely subverting the financial system, at a time when the financial system was not trusted and was collapsing.

Morgan Peck: Boom. News 3: Traders here working the phones say a lot of their customers are freaked out. Morgan Peck: was the big implosion. News 3: What in the world is happening on Wall Street? Molly Webster: In September the stock markets crashed, the banks failed. News 2: Unbelievable. Molly Webster: There was bailout. News 1: You know, this shakes your core.

This shakes your trust in American institutions. Molly Webster: And then, just a few months later Morgan Peck: , January. News 1: It's a hot topic on Wall Street right now, it's very interesting. News 2: Bitcoin. News 1: Bitcoin. I can't resist Morgan Peck: Bitcoin showed up. Molly Webster: Oh, so Bitcoin was after the big collapse. Morgan Peck: It was after, and it was very much a response to that, definitely.

Molly Webster: 'Cause here was this currency that was decentralized, which means it's run and monitored by all the people who use it, which means you don't need a federal reserve. Morgan Peck: Libertarians were really into it. Morgan Peck: The way that the, the, uh, technology works is that, uh, it tracks every single transaction that's every made on the network. Molly Webster: Any time anyone with a Bitcoin buys a coffee or a pound of heroin, that transaction is kept in something called the public ledger.

Morgan Peck: Bitcoin has a ledger, public ledger. Jad Abumrad: And is that something that each person has? Morgan Peck: It's out there for anyone to see. Jad Abumrad: Really? Morgan Peck: Yep. Jad Abumrad Jad Abumrad: Well that's not private at all. Morgan Peck: No. Molly Webster: In other words, in the ledger, you never see anyone's actual name. Morgan Peck: There are no names on, in Bitcoin.

Molly Webster: Like I wouldn't be Molly. I'd be TG. Morgan Peck: The problem is that while there are no names attached, the behavior is out there for anyone to see. Molly Webster: Turns out it's really not that hard to match this, like, string of characters with the person that it represents out in the real world.

Morgan Peck: Oh yeah. Jad Abumrad: Wow. Molly Webster: And so one of the puzzles that, uh, all the internet people think about is, is there a way to get the best of both worlds? Zooko Wilcox: Hello, Zooko here. Molly Webster: To somebody named Zooko Wilcox.

Zooko Wilcox: I'm Zooko and I'm in a different room. Molly Webster: laughs Okay. Zooko Wilcox: Mm. Molly Webster: Like, it's just a good name, Zooko. Zooko Wilcox: Thanks. Molly Webster: Yay, Zooko! Morgan Peck: He's been working on digital currencies for a long time. Molly Webster: And he's extremely trusted.

Jad Abumrad: Is he a charismatic leader type of thing? Molly Webster: Yeah, he is. When he first encountered Bitcoin, he was, like, "Cool. Molly Webster: Because Morgan Peck: He's a pretty hardcore cipher punk. Jad Abumrad: Oh my God, it's like worlds upon worlds that are opening for us. Morgan Peck: Yeah. Molly Webster: She said this, it is group of people that care deeply about how to make the internet more private.

Zooko Wilcox: I think privacy is a human right and that it's a necessary condition for the exercise of, of free choice, of morality and of political participation and of everything that's, uh, of intimacy, everything that's most important it as humans. Molly Webster: So this whole thing with Bitcoin and the privacy problem Zooko Wilcox: So I went out my way, studied the Bitcoin source code and I contributed some suggestions and yes, I immediately started fantasizing about what could be better.

Molly Webster: So then he, being like the privacy, security cipher punk guru laughs , he becomes the leader of something called Zcash. Zooko Wilcox: Zcash. Morgan Peck: And Zcash, really it's main, um, contribution to this ecosystem is privacy. Zooko Wilcox: So there's this thing called a zero knowledge proof. Molly Webster: Okay. Zooko Wilcox: And it's a mathematical invention that mathematicians had come up with.

Zooko Wilcox: This where computer science and mathematics start to overlap into wizardry here. Molly Webster: All you need to know is that Zcash promises to give you decentralization with this like, buffet of privacy. Zooko Wilcox: An unfortunate vulnerability in the math. Molly Webster: In order to create the currency of Zcash you have to first create a number. Zooko Wilcox: A certain, enormous number.

Molly Webster: And then you use that number to do a bunch of math. Morgan Peck: In this system, in this system if somebody got a hold of the private key they could counterfeit Zcash coins. Zooko Wilcox: They could counterfeit money. Morgan Peck Zooko Wilcox: You could cheat. Morgan Peck: That's a really big problem when you have a, uh, anonymous currency.

Molly Webster: 'Cause no one would ever know. Morgan Peck: Nope. Molly Webster: Bitcoin, since it's a public ledger, you can actually see if there's any funny business going on. Morgan Peck: Right, the lack of privacy in Bitcoin is a security measure.

Molly Webster: But here, no one would ever know. Morgan Peck: There's this one moment where, you know, you have to trust people in a way that's completely existentially defining of the currency. Molly Webster: So this is what Zooko's up against. Jad Abumrad: Is i-, this is very much like an immaculate conception. Molly Webster: That's so good. Okay, so here we are. Zooko decides Zooko Wilcox: We'll have a ceremony. Molly Webster: Wow, okay.

Morgan Peck: Here's the thing. Morgan Peck: I was chosen, yeah. Molly Webster: And, but did you even know what you were being invited to? Morgan Peck: Come to this, uh, coffee store in Boulder. Molly Webster: So Morgan gets on a flight to Denver, rents a car to Boulder, and goes to the coffee shop. Morgan Peck: Zooko's there. Molly Webster: Standing next to the barista counter. Morgan Peck: And actually, he has a huge paper map with him.

Molly Webster: Friend of Zooko's. Morgan Peck: Who, uh, was going to film it all. Molly Webster: Was that, was that for you? You wanted everything recorded? Zooko Wilcox: Yeah. And it was to serve as a security mechanism and documentation for the public. Molly Webster: More on that in a second. Zooko Wilcox: And then Nathaniel K: Okay. Zooko Wilcox: Okay. Molly Webster: They leave the coffee shop, go over to Nat's van.

Morgan Peck: He mics us both up. I told him they could mic me up. Zooko Wilcox: And we're gonna, now we're gonna turn off all of our cell phones. Morgan Peck: I'm trying to think if I have to say goodbye to anyone. Zooko Wilcox: We were like, okay. Zooko Wilcox: Yeah we're going to the computer store.

Molly Webster: You know, already planted some malware or tracking device on Zooko's personal laptop. Zooko Wilcox: Before we even started. Molly Webster: To get a clean computer. Morgan Peck: He's decided to go to Denver for this. Morgan Peck: But laughs he doesn't want to use his phone. Zooko Wilcox: No. Hey, I think I need to use my paper map. Morgan Peck: Because what if somebody's like, tracking what he's looking at. Zooko Wilcox: Let's go straight.

Morgan Peck: Nat is doing much of this recording while he's driving. Jad Abumrad: Do you have like a black hoodie over you, like, Hezbollah style? Morgan Peck: No Molly Webster: So they're driving for a little bit. Zooko Wilcox: When Molly Webster: All of a sudden they make this pit stop.

Zooko Wilcox: laughs We were like, "Hey, there's a costume store. Morgan Peck: This is the right spot. Zooko Wilcox: Way to go, Nat. Storeperson 1: Okay. Zooko Wilcox: Can I see your wizard hat section? Storeperson 1: Yeah. Zooko Wilcox: Hmm Molly Webster: What is the wizard hat you settled on? Zooko Wilcox: Um, ooh, it was a Gandalf hat. Gandalf hat.

Yeah I love the Gandalf hat. Molly Webster: Ah. Zooko Wilcox: I think it's good. Molly Webster: That is appropriate. The greatest wizard of all. So that's gonna be a winner, thanks. Storeperson 1: Yeah, of course. Molly Webster: And then Morgan Peck: Van, Denver, computer. Zooko Wilcox: We drove down using our paper map with our cellphones off to the computer store.

Molly Webster: They get there. Storeperson 2: Howdy. Molly Webster: Walk in. Zooko Wilcox: Oh yeah. This is the place. Molly Webster: Do a little computer shopping. Zooko Wilcox: Can we get a side by side comparison of two different ones. Storeperson 2: Sure. Molly Webster: A few minutes later Zooko Wilcox: Yeah, I want this one.

Molly Webster: Zooko gets his computer. Morgan Peck: And at that point, the computer is sacred. Zooko Wilcox: It's called an i Zooko Wilcox: It's called the compute node. Jad Abumrad: And why is it scared? Molly Webster: Well, because this is the computer that will hold the secret number, the number that will give birth to an entirely new currency.

Zooko Wilcox: All right, thank you very much. Zooko Wilcox: And drove to an area that had hotels that we knew of. But where's this hotel? Morgan Peck: And we're going around to, like, the hotels in Boulder. Zooko Wilcox: Is it this way? Morgan Peck: And they're all full.

Zooko Wilcox: I don't know if they have ethernet in their hotel room. Morgan Peck: Or they don't have an ethernet connection. Zooko Wilcox: So then we go to another hotel. Morgan Peck: I liked that hotel it was really Molly Webster: And another.

Zooko Wilcox: She wasn't clear on the notion of ethernet. Morgan Peck: It's like at night. Ahh, what's the plan here? Zooko Wilcox: laughs Yes. Zooko Wilcox: Millennium has rooms and it has ethernet. Molly Webster: They find hotel. Morgan Peck: Oh my God.

Zooko Wilcox: And she even went and double checked. Molly Webster: Zooko actually has Nat book the hotel room. Zooko Wilcox: For two nights. Nathaniel K: Do you want me to come with you? Zooko Wilcox: Yep. Do you have a key? Morgan Peck: We all check into one room. Zooko Wilcox: Ground floor. It's not particularly fancy. Morgan Peck: Couple tables, you know, you got your two beds.

Molly Webster: Then they set up. Zooko Wilcox: We're a well organized machine. Molly Webster: They totally transform the place. Morgan Peck: In general, I'm not gonna help out. They gave me a bed to chill out on. Zooko Wilcox: You can concentrate on, on careful observing. Morgan Peck: Okay. Zooko Wilcox: So what we did was, we stripped the room of all of the lamps and the telephone.

Morgan Peck: Everything on all the counters gets shoved somewhere. Zooko Wilcox: All of that stuff, cleared it away into the closet or the bathtub. Morgan Peck: What are you doing? Zooko Wilcox Molly Webster: So they unplug it, slide it under one of the beds Zooko Wilcox: Goodbye, TV. You know what? Another reason is I hate TVs. Television is the worst. Molly Webster: Then they grab the table where they're gonna set up the compute node.

Morgan Peck: Want to explain again why you're keeping it away from the wall? Molly Webster: Pull that out a ways. Zooko Wilcox: Oh Molly Webster: This is like the dopest attack that Zooko is planning against, called side channel attacks. Zooko Wilcox: And that's a message by which you could use an antenna. Molly Webster: Or like a really high tech microphone Molly Webster: For example with some crazy microphone you could listen in to the computer's processor and if you heard something like Morgan Peck: So Zooko Wilcox: All right, so please don't put anything on this desk from here on out.

Morgan Peck: It's pulled away from the wall about, I don't know, five feet, just in case there's somebody set up next door. Zooko Wilcox: And then started loading in all the cameras and equipment. Morgan Peck: Battery backs, junk food, but then there was also a whole security camera set up. Zooko Wilcox: One cool, one really cool thing about these security cameras is that they don't have a radio. Morgan Peck: Four security cameras which were from the '80s. Zooko Wilcox: Before security cameras came with wifi.

Morgan Peck: Mm-hmm affirmative. And their nigh vision security cameras. Molly Webster: And they set those up. Zooko Wilcox: So that you could see the other cameras from the first cameras. Molly Webster: And this security camera set up was, uh, one of the key points in trying to create what Morgan was talking about earlier. Morgan Peck: This alchemy. Molly Webster: Faith. Zooko Wilcox: Trust.

Molly Webster: Whatever. Zooko Wilcox: So the security mechanism this was, this was going to catch any shenanigans. Molly Webster: And then Zooko was gonna post this security footage to the internet so, uh, experts, security experts, could scan it an make up their minds. Zooko Wilcox: Hold on, where are you gonna sleep tonight? Perfect content and delivery for those who might know nothing or a little about crypto, and want to start diving deeper.

Well organized podcast. I really enjoy how they have very structure conversation amongs mutltiple contributors while keep it clear and ease to follow. It really shows that a lot time and effort is investing in keep the conversion open while staying on point.

What can I say except that this podcast is fast moving, informative and offering excellent content for anyone diving into the world of Blockchain and the world of tokens and coins. Great knowledge, well presented and very informative. Would recommend to newbies and crypto pioneers alike. Before putting any money into any tech, understand what the tech is about. Crypto Radio is great for those trying to do that for the blockchain world. Im really like to listen podcasts, and i was looking for one that have good quality for learn about cryptos and for how to make money with it.

Then i found you guys, thanks for so much good information in this unnexplored world! I higly recommend your podcasts for who want to learn about cryptos and ICO's. Based on knowledge rather than intuition, I like the logic behind these podcasts. They really allow me to feel more secure about my crypto decisions. I am very grateful for the priceless insight! Big fan of Future Thinkers and I always craved more talks on crypto and blockchain this filles that great. Looking foward to its progression.

I've been getting more and more into the world of Cryptocurrency and I am happy to have found this podcast. So far, they have done a great job laying out the basics for newcomers, and I look forward to seeing where the show goes. As a crypto beginner this podcast has been very informative!

It's not filled with the basic, "this is what you should do and you will make money! They have been helpful to understand the technology, its potential, and its current issues. They get right down to business. This is a very intelligent group of people that always seem to be ahead of the curve.

Because of them I will keep buying bitcoin after I almost scared myself out of it. It has been very lucritive, and I only see this technology growing! We are living in an exciting time. Great introduction to Bitcoin. Feel like I'm ready to take next baby steps in the crypto world and looking forward to the following episodes.

Rock on! Just as it is with the industry they cover, these guys are ahead of the curve and I am excited to see where both Crypto and this podcast go. All 4 hosts mesh well to bring you all the knowledge to get started into this exciting new field. I have found a fun and cool place to use when I need to create or zone out!! Everyone should give this platform a try!! Tuned into the first episode of this podcast as I saw it pop up Twitter.

Interrupted some a16z thing to listen to this instead Had high hopes for this podcast as I've been enjoying listening to the dangerously mind-exanding Future Thinkers podcast for some time. Here we have two new hosts in addition to the usual Future Thinkers line-up.

I must say this expanded Crytpo team was a real treat. Really good conversation and good to hear the views of the hosts and some crisp thinking about blockchain, crypto and financial markets generally. Most of all what I like about the approach here is the complete accessibility of the subject that this podcast is geared towards.

Listening to this first episode is a good guide to knowing where to start with cryptocurrency. Looking forward to more. Crypto Radio is a podcast about all things blockchain, bitcoin, and crypto investing. We interview the top thinkers and entrepreneurs in the industry, and cover topics like bitcoin and ethereum, news, technology developments, investing, trading, and ICOs. Toggle navigation.

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